What do you think of religous rip offs?

[Abel Christian (Jaberwocky)]

what do you think of people borrowing from another religon take it in as there own makinga new religon from it. or do you think were comming closer to the whole picture doing it?

[Bee Weezer]

To fully understand what you believe in while putting it in practice is very very important. Because on judgment day, a lot shall be proud of what they did in the name of Christ especially the miracles they did in His name, yet Christ will deny them. So it is very important that our faith will not end in vain.
Hence, in this regard, I am standing firm with my belief based in the Bible that God is against using images or statues in worshipping Him. And Catholics is saying that it is not against God and they claim that it's also in the Bible. So that's my question, is it true? If true, prove it! But please SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM WITH VERSES QUOTED FROM THE BIBLE AND NOT ONLY ON YOUR OWN WORDS OR EMOTIONS OR FEELINGS OR EXPERIENCE. These are unacceptable to me. We are Christians, then use the sole (should be) basis of our faith, the Bible and the Bible alone.

[Abel Christian (Jaberwocky)]

If were talking about the idealizing of religous rip offs. Geeez we might as well be redirecting to the bible. you even know adams first wife was lillith from resorces I pulled last night. there are parts of that bible that are even taken out and put together so some group and understand it in there nice little way and so many things Have been taken out. If I even spelled litllith right. look it up on wiki might help.Take into turns that you can not anyways fully trust every ink mark on the pages of the bible knowing its been taken out of text so many times and revised. If you quoting on defending something get a little more clear on what your defending amen peace be on you. and if you want to settle an agument even talk make a blog so we can argue there. not here. Myth or not its important to realise that things are revised so many times It'll make your head spin

[Faye aka Mysst]

not to mention the King James version changing the scripture to suit his needs...

I don't remember the citing but "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" originally read "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner/murderer to live."

But Bee...

Images are used as representations of chosen deity. To those who use images and statues and other figures or pictures...perhaps just a candle; the item becomes that particular deity during ceremony...it is merely a vessel that has been offered for chosen deity to reside in. Those who rub it hope that it will bring divine favor upon them kind of like rubbing Buddah's belly for luck...a practice that is used to try and hold some of the divine essence to bless their lives...call it a supperstition, it's just what some people do. For the people who leave 'offerings' at the foot of chosen icon; it's a way to show who that offering is for. Many people are concrete thinkers and need something physical to connect with their deity which is why many have given Jesus's face to God and why God sent his son to Earth to live with us...so we had something physical to connect with spiritually...a mediary to connect us to the source. Because Jesus is no longer with us, people have made images of him to represent him, not be him or replace him but to represent him and honor him.

[Bee Weezer]

Hi there Faye! Thanks for the input.

Correct me if I am wrong, are you a wiccan?

Now back to the subject. Let me clear again my position Faye. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST SYMBOLS like the Red Cross which represents the Red Cross Organization or the common one, our individual flags which represents a certain state or country and a lot more. What I am against of is using symbols i.e. images, statues and now candles in worshipping God. God said, “do not make (note: even just to make is already forbidden) an idol for you and bow before it” but man insists, “but it represents You”, hence, God said,”I will not give my glory to any of that idols” but man still continue doing what God has already forbidden. From this, what I’ve understood was that “as if it is man who wants God to follow him instead of the other way around”. If my understanding is wrong, then refute it and let us weigh.

I deeply understand what you wanted to convey Faye regarding to have somewhat a physical object to connect ourselves i.e. thoughts and emotions with something. But in worshipping God, what is the principle of the Bible?

“Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.” (John 4:23).

With the above citation, Christ mentions two important things in worshipping God the Father. 1. In SPIRIT and 2. In truth. I think that is self-explanatory.

Physically yes. Christ is not already with us but spiritually, He’s always been with us from the time we were chosen. If you need me to quote verses from the Bible to support this, just tell me so. This post is getting longer, that is why.

Lastly, in what sense/way we truly do honor or love Christ?

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 14:23)

[Faye aka Mysst]

No I am not Wiccan. You would know what I am if you've read the other threads. I consider myself an eclectic Pagan. I do not follow the Wiccan Rede "An it harm none, do as though will" I follow the Norse Rede of Honor which does not forbid the practice of darker arts. If you want to put a color to me I am a Grey Witch.

And I'd like to thank you for reminding me why I moved away from the Christian beliefs and practices as they say one thing and do another. Simple example is some worshipping the Pope as God's avatar and for some as God himself.

Although I still don't completely understand your grievences against the use of symbols to represent Divinity.

Do you have these same feelings towards holy water? or perhaps the chalice that is used during the sacrements that represents the holy grail? And to think that during the sacrements you are eating flesh and drinking blood. If you follow the bible so closely as you say then you must not wear jewelry, as adornment is forbidden according to your scripture. Which of course means that Christians cannot wear a simple cross pendant to express their chosen faith. The very things you question are enough for others to label you a blasphemer.

But then again I am one of the 'other people' that your bible speaks of and therefore know nothing of what I'm talking about. According to your bible I am not even human merely some other beast for some 'man' to rule over.

This discussion has moved way off the topic of religious rip offs to the use of symbols to represent deity being wrong. And that is your opinion as well as the forty men wrote that book of stories you call holy scripture (who most likely also used symbols) when it in itself is a symbol that people will swear an oath on.

I could continue on with the contradictions your bible has within itself...dealing with the uses of magic and sorcery when many famous 'wizards' include Moses and King Solomon, both important figures in your book.

If you wish to discuss this more with me we will do so by more private means.

[Bee Weezer]

Kayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!! How are you? :)

Hmnnn…kaye, you sound very serious. But, where you’ve been anyway? And Abel? Where’s everybody?

Okey, back to the issue.

Holy water is not mentioned in the Bible and even the chalice being used to represent the holy grail. And again, just like what I’ve said in my previous posts, when Christ said to drink in His blood and eat in His flesh, he meant His death and not the literal meaning of it. Whoever sinned shall die in his own sins not the others. So how could it be when Christ did not sin yet had to die? Christ created a new man for himself. The head (Christ) and the body (the Church) who is considered now as one man in the sight of God. Hence, Christ did not violate God’s rule in salvation. Therefore, when Christ died, His body died with Him as well. When He was resurrected by God, His body resurrected with Him as well. That is why Christ said drink in my blood and eat in my flesh. If you want me to support this biblically, just tell me so.

It could not be the literal meaning (if you will insist) because the Apostles clearly admonished the early christians that drinking/eating blood is forbidden. It’s a serious crime and unforgivable, that is why the Apostles stated it specifically. In the old testament, God said that He will not take away His sight from people who are doing such forbidden act till the judgment day and a such continues in the new testament.

Nowhere in the new testament that wearing jewelry and adornment is forbidden. And I am not even against to wearing a cross pendant. But once you use it as a symbol (and the worse kneeling before it) of Christianity, then there lies the difference.

Now, when the Bible is being used as a symbol that people will swear an oath on, there is nothing wrong with that for the Bible itself symbolizes “truth”. But if one shall bow or kneel before the Bible and said to himself, you are my god, then there lies again the difference.

I firmly believe that there is no contradiction in the Bible. Please cite any and let us weigh. Now, if you are accusing Moses and King Solomon used magic and sorcery, please cite and let us weigh. But I stand firmly that they did not because the Bible is absolutely against magic and whosoever practice sorcery. If you consider the miracles done by God through them especially through Moses, then that was not act of sorcery but a manifestation of His great power.

Now, in order for both of us to have a clear picture of what a sorcery is, I would like you to define for me first what the word means to you and let us weigh.

Blasphemer? The early Christians in defending the true faith suffered and even died for it than just being accused as blasphemers. If my questions regarding worshipping images and statues or using them as symbols of Christinianity would somehow labeled me as a blasphemer, then be it. But again, it's my belief and am just glad to share it whether you accept it or not. (with deep respect in your faith)

You know what Faye, everyone here sounds interesting to me. Even Abel that somehow I’ve had some difficulties to understand the exact messages he wanted to convey. So I prefer to have this exchanging of beliefs, ideas, opinions and view to be done here and not in private (thanks anyway) because I want to hear their sides also. Nothing personal, I want to discover more varieties of fruits.

Peace and I miss all!

[Bee Weezer]

Oh finally, this post somehow is posted with clearer English. Now, I can react on your post Abel.

I am a Christian Abel so there is no other way but to “redirect” my religious beliefs and practices to the sole source of my faith – the Bible. You are exactly right. Some religious organizations made their own translations just to fit their personal interpretations. The most popular one is the belief that Christ is God. Apostle Peter already forewarned the true Christians regarding this:
“Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. (2 Peter 3:15-17,NIV)

Anyone can bring a Bible and preach Christ but one must be on alert. As what the Bible says, test them first. If they don’t speak in Spirit, indeed there is no dawn for them. And the true messenger of God (in these last days) does not give his own interpretations of the Bible. Just like the Apostles before, whatever was spoken or written in spirit must be compared with whatever was spoken and written in spirit also. Therefore, if one’s interpretation on a certain verse contradicts another single verse (Bible), it could not be the correct interpretation. Not the truth in other words.

Abel, I think this is the group all about - to share our beliefs, and part of our sharing is to ask questions; and any answers given may be agreed with, questioned, refute or decline to have your stand defended.

So do you suggest that if I’d do it in “blog”, your comments would change or improve more somehow? When in fact I’VE NEVER HEARD ANY VALID COMMENTS from you from the very start? This is one of the best examples:

YOU: If you quoting on defending something get a little more clear on what your defending amen peace be on you

ME: So which one of my posts do you think IS NOT CLEAR TO ME that I need a little more clear? Did you cite any? None. Did you refute it logically? No. All you do is just to complain that the Bible is like this or like that. Just when you comment on one religious beliefs or practices, do you support your allegations? No. SO PLEASE, NEXT TIME, PROVE YOUR ALLEGATIONS WITH LOGICAL AND SENSIBLE REASONINGS and not with all these useless blah blah blah. Sorry, just being very straightforward to you.

Hence, if ever I ignore any of your particular post in the future, it only means two: 1. Your English is in trouble again giving me a headache to understand what you really want to convey; and 2. Just complaining.

[Valérie Charles]

Wow, some stuff happenned while I was away ! Please group, don't forget that I want us to share in total respect towards each others beliefs and convictions...

Thanks for the comment by the way Bee ;)

So, the sub-subject was '' chrisitians worshiping griven images '' I think that if it was true, it would totally contradict their beliefs. I mean...how could you worship something that isn't already a spiritual reality ?

I believe that men have a natural penchant for physical support to their spiritual beliefs. The best exemple would be Jesus with the last supper. He showed the disciples a representation of a spiritual truth, the everlasting sacrifice of love for their sins. The order spiritual to physical should never be inverted. If it is, from there it becomes idolatry.

Hebrews 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

The only thing that contradicts it all is this : Deuteronomy 5:8-9
Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: 9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them (...)

I understand that God does not want us to fall into spiritual aduletery, but this is a natural thing for humans. The best to do would be to avoid this sort of thing if chrisitans want to be consistent with the scriptures.

This view should be personal to one another and not be taught as a doctrine. We sure don't want our shepards to be stumbling blocks for the sheeps do we ?

[Bee Weezer]

Halloowwww Valerie. Welcome back! Where have you been dear?

First and foremost, I firmly believe that there is no contradiction(s) in the Bible.

I checked the verses you’ve mentioned Valerie. For me (again, for me) Hebrew 11:3 gives us a picture of how the world was created – from NOTHING but only by the word of God. Unlike in this world when a man wishes to create something, he must utilize at least of “something” to come-up with the materialization of his idea, imaginations and the like. The following verses further prove that indeed everything with God is possible for those who put their trusts in Him; and for those who put their trusts in Him are surely following what God has commanded them not to do and that applies the Deut. 5:8-9.

And yes Valerie, I don’t suggest to anybody here that the above is a doctrine. I am just sharing what I think is true. And if one thinks that his is also true contradicting mine, don’t I have the freedom to test it if it’s really true without being judgmental? With a hope that I might find something "fruitful" from it? If one thinks not to go on anymore with the argumentation, THAT IS ALL FINE WITH ME. I respect that.

Bee :)

[Bee Weezer]

Hi there Kiki!!
a matter of choice is not in any way has been an issue here Kiki. That is way we call it individual-ity. That's actually a cliche and everyone understood that one here. So leave that part. It's a matter of comparing and I have some questions in a particular issue and somehow refuting it that a certain Catholic practice is against the teaching of the Bible. I want to know, I want to learn, I want to test if indeed what they think or consider is "true" is really true WITHOUT DISCRIMINATION, WITHOUT BEING JUDGEMENTAL in their faiths.

[Abel Christian (Jaberwocky)]

Its rather clear to me Im going to have trouble commuticating here to some people. I dont feel like writting a paragragh just on something simple. like what I meant peace be on you. when It was rather clear I didnt mean malice and curses be to the soul. it was simply put another was hey. Im trying to wish you a good future and God bless in another way and words. Its clear to me that someone must alture the words I speak to think they mean something other then what I said them to be. Or some feel its in there rightfull place to say he cant grant the power to say peace be on you in the depths of his heart. It must be forbiddening to some sort. So. futher I'd like to just add I would not like to write a paragragh or essay just becouse someone doesnt or refuses to understand me. when I try to go out of my way not to be hurtfull in any sort and simplfy things in a good matter it doesnt seem to be working. perhaps in the future things will be differnt. I dont intend to change much here and type out every last thing I was meaning to get across in good way. Of course I cant seem to prove that I meant good anyways. That would require faith or a level of awareness that I seem to have no power to change either. of course that is mearly how I feel accourding to everything Ive written that was missunderstood so far. feelings and reality of the way things are. are differnt from the way they feel and logic can appear differnt from person to person.

[Bee Weezer]

ok Abel :)