The Holy Bible's contradictions (Warning - Clarity in here)

[SirReal Killer]

Well, I'm finally going to post a religious thread. It is Sunday and I figured I'd have a little sermon of my own. God seems like a logical guy, so why not. Xtians, I humbly welcome you to "explain away". I'm curious as to how you all deal with this on a day to day basis (that is if you're going to go with the typical translation argument which Im pretty sure I and others here can debunk). :thinks:

Unfortunately I can't take credit for this. I wish I could.

http://www.evilbible.com/Biblical%20Contradictions.htm

Yes, that is a pagan site. ;)

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7


Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8
26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7
27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13
28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15
29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20
30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10
31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22
32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20
33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1
34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1
37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6
38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8
39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14
40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2
41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16
42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15
43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5
44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14
45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8
46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34
47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8
48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32
49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16
51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21
52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29
53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32
54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35
55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9
56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10
57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39


Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19
59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6
60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15
61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9
62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27
63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8
64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21
65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23
66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36
67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6
68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16
69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39
70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2
71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20
72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24
73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10
74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26
75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38
76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15
77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40
78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7
79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18
80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7
81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1
82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10
83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1
84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5
85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5
86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>
87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22
88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49
89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17
90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51
91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14
92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8
93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17
94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32
95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2
96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16
97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13
98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect>
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5
99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29
100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8
101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1
102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5
103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5
104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12
105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4
106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25
107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44


Speculative Doctrines

108. Christ is equal with God
John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
Christ is not equal with God
John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
109. Jesus was all-powerful
Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
Jesus was not all-powerful
Mark 6:5
110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
Matt 5:17-19
111. Christ's mission was peace
Luke 2:13,14
Christ's mission was not peace
Matt 10:34
112. Christ received not testimony from man
John 5:33,34
Christ did receive testimony from man
John 15:27
113. Christ's witness of himself is true.
John 8:18,14
Christ's witness of himself is not true.
John 5:31
114. Christ laid down his life for his friends
John 15:13/ John 10:11
Christ laid down his life for his enemies
Rom 5:10
115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 19:7
It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 18:31
116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents
Ex 20:5
Children are not punished for the sins of the parents
Ezek 18:20
117. Man is justified by faith alone
Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
Man is not justified by faith alone
James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13
118. It is impossible to fall from grace
John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39
It is possible to fall from grace
Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21
119. No man is without sin
1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10
Christians are sinless
1 John 3: 9,6,8
120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead
1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16
There is to be no resurrection of the dead
Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14
121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world
Prov 11:31
Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world
Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10
122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind
Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20
Endless misery the portion of all mankind
Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2
123. The Earth is to be destroyed
2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11
The Earth is never to be destroyed
Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4
124. No evil shall happen to the godly
Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13
Evil does happen to the godly
Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7
125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly
Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/
Job 42:12
Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly
Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17
126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing
Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/
Prov 15:6
Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward
Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/
Luke 6:24
127. The Christian yoke is easy
Matt 11:28,29,30
The Christian yoke is not easy
John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8
128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness
Gal 5:22
The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury
Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11
129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked
Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20
Longevity denied to the wicked
Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17
130. Poverty a blessing
Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5
Riches a blessing
Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12
Neither poverty nor riches a blessing
Prov 30:8,9
131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment
Prov 3:13,17
Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow
Eccl 1:17,18
132. A good name is a blessing
Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1
A good name is a curse
Luke 6:26
133. Laughter commended
Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15
Laughter condemned
Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4
134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness
Prov 22:15
There is no remedy for foolishness
Prov 27:22
135. A fool should be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:5
A fool should not be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:4
136. Temptation to be desired
James 1:2
Temptation not to be desired
Matt 6:13
137. Prophecy is sure
2 Pet 1:19
Prophecy is not sure
Jer 18:7-10
138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years
Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10
Man's life is but seventy years
Ps 90:10
139. The fear of man was to be upon every beast
Gen 9:2
The fear of man is not upon the lion
Prov 30:30
140. Miracles a proof of divine mission
Matt 11:2-5/ John 3:2/ Ex 14:31
Miracles not a proof of divine mission
Ex 7:10-12/ Deut 13:1-3/ Luke 11:19
141. Moses was a very meek man
Num 12:3
Moses was a very cruel man
Num 31:15,17
142. Elijah went up to heaven
2 Kings 2:11
None but Christ ever ascended into heaven
John 3:13
143. All scripture is inspired
2 Tim 3:16
Some scripture is not inspired
1 Cor 7:6/ 1 Cor 7:12/ 2 Cor 11:17

[SirReal Killer]

I have cross referenced quite a few of these myself, and it seems pretty clear to me (however I am using a typical NIV translation) :)

[serendipityxo]

...amen.


:]

[CaRoL N.]

Hmm, I do distinctly remember a certain someone who started this thread saying, and I do quote, “…I bring the debate, I don't start fundamentalist Atheist (ironically funny yet again) threads”. Well I suppose if you want to talk about contradictions, the best way to go is be one yourself. ;-)

I’m also interested to know whether or not said person who started this thread actually took the time to read every single one of the supposed contradictions listed here and then taking the time to decide for himself whether or not all these are ‘really’ contradictions. I’m betting he didn’t, since there are quite a lot listed, but his fantastic copy and paste job only serves to show me that he is quite blindly accepting of whatever people say about supposed contradictions in the bible. And exactly how different is that from the supposedly incompetent Christians who also supposedly blindly accept whatever they hear from their pastor or church members? Not that I’m saying that there aren’t Christians who do so, but there are many who actually do take the time to analyze these supposed contradictions, and find that there is a perfectly good explanation for all of them. In fact, a team of wonderful people has already written their counter to each and every one of the supposed contradictions in this list: http://www.rationalchristianity.net/143contrad.html or here http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm , which saves me quite a bit of work. To be fair, I haven’t taken the time to read all of the explanations myself, and I don’t necessarily agree with all the answers I did read… because I could think of other good explanations of my own. And so I challenge ANYONE who thinks there are contradictions in the Bible and who are open for discussion to take the time, read the list, read the answers, and then analyze it and decide for yourself if the explanation is good enough. And if you think it isn’t, then show me the verses you still think is a contradiction, and I will be most willing to explain it further. However, if you can’t be bothered to do so and simply accept that the list of bible contradictions is true, then I’m sorry to say that you are no less a blindly accepting fool than the Christians you think are so silly. ALSO, if your only aim is to prove the Bible is wrong, and you can’t come up with a good argument but merely degenerate into laughter akin to that of a drunken hyena at every good answer given (such as I know the person who started this thread loves to do), then I will save myself the time and not reply to such people who are obviously not open to any form of intelligent discussion or answers. Proverbs 18:2 would make as a wonderful motto for such people.

If you would like a slightly more concise version of explanation for the supposed contradictions, then here you go (Just so you know, none of these were copy or pasted from anywhere, I read the list and used my God-given gray matter to analyze it. Analyzing really helps sometime. Good scientists need to be able to do that too, lest they become the laughing stock of the scientific community):

1) The people who made the list of contradictions did not read their verses properly… or their English is really lousy. In other words, they made some really silly boo-boos in tossing in everything but the kitchen sink in their list of ‘contradictions’. For example, Contradiction No.14 mentions contradicting verses that God is warlike and God is peaceful, and one of the verses to support the former (God is warlike) is Isaiah 51:15, which says “For I am the LORD your God, who churns up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name.” Obviously, this verse has nothing to do with war or fighting. And then in Contradiction 21, the ‘contradictions’ are because of man’s wickedness, God destroys him (Genesis 6:5-7) and then because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him (Gen 8:21). Genesis 8:21 says “The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood.” This verse is saying that God will never destroy man again EVEN THOUGH he is wicked, not BECAUSE he is wicked. These people really should read what they put as a ‘contradiction’ so they don’t make themselves look daft.

2) The people who made the list did not read the verse in context. Context is very important when reading anything. These bible detractors love to pluck verses out of context without reading what the rest of the story is, but the rest of the story shows the verse is not a contradiction. If you were to read that “Koreans love dogs…” and stop right there, you would probably interpret that to mean they love dogs as pets. But if you read the rest of it, “Koreans love dogs because their meat tastes yummy”, then it’s a different meaning altogether. Context, context, context! Very important! Example from the list: Contradiction No. 36 states that Luke 12:4 says Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed, while John 7:1 says Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed. John 7:1 says “After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life”. No where in this verse does is say that Jesus avoided the Jews because He was scared. In fact, a few verses later in John 7:6, Jesus then says “The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right”. Jesus was not avoiding the Jews because He was scared of being killed, He was avoiding them because it was not the right time for Him to die yet. And we all know that Christ ended up allowing himself to be killed anyway.

3) Slight differing accounts of the same event does not prove the event to be untrue, rather it reinforces that the event actually occurred. Example in Contradictions 81 to 85, regarding the differences between the four gospels on the number of women who visited Jesus’ tomb, the number of angels seen (one or two), the time they visited the tomb, etc, etc. I already explained this in my Debunking Genesis thread, but since I cover 5 supposed contradictions with this, allow me to repeat myself. When an event such as a major accident, or even a murder happens, and you have several witnesses, very each witness interviewed separately will give you slightly different accounts of what happened. It’s normal, different people observe and notice different things, and in the excitement of a major event such as an accident or murder (or Jesus missing from the tomb), people are more likely to get their facts garbled. But in a court case for a murder, no sane judge or jury is going to write off all the accounts of all witnesses simply because their accounts do not tally completely. In fact the more witnesses there are, the more proof it is that the event happened. Same goes for the 4 gospel writers. The 4 different writers heard or experienced different things, and probably got the details garbled. So what? You still have 4 accounts of some women going to Jesus’ tomb, finding His tomb missing and seeing at least one angel who told them that Jesus has risen from the dead. ALSO, some bible detractors also like to argue that the gospel writers were simply copying their accounts from the previous writers, therefore making their gospel invalid. But if this was the case, there wouldn’t be ANY differences between the gospels. The fact that there are slight differences shows that there was no copying between the four gospel writers, they were each writing their own accounts from their own experiences. And as I mentioned before, I don’t believe the Bible is completely ‘error’ free. It is the inspired world of God, but man in all his imperfections no doubt got some details wrong, especially since they were writing from memory, and also since there were no photocopying machines back then, copies were made by scribes who also would have made some mistakes. It does not necessarily prove that the stories in the Bible are untrue, as I’m sure most History books contains such errors as well but it still does not mean historical events did not happen.

4) New laws or teachings were made by God or Jesus for a purpose, not to ‘contradict’ old ones. For example, Contradiction 50 mentions verses where marriage with a sister is denounced and other verses where Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union. The account of Abraham marrying his sister is written in Genesis, and God only prohibited marriage between siblings (or incest) during the time of Moses, which was way after the events of Genesis. Sexual relationships between family members were permitted in Genesis so Adam and Eve and their children could ‘go forth and multiply’, and also Noah and his family after the flood. After the population had already gotten pretty high in Moses time, and because inbreeding was probably starting to become a problem, only THEN did God prohibit incest. Another example is Contradiction 43 (No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death - Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36; Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in the same - John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5). This is not the only Old Testament law that Jesus broke. However, his purpose was not to come and show people how good he was at abiding by all the laws of the Old Testament times. God laid down many laws in the Old Testament because He is perfect and through these laws, He made it known to the people that his standards for people to be made righteous or spiritually clean were also very high. However, very few people could be made righteous (meaning all sins removed) with God by meeting all these laws simply because abiding by all of them was way too difficult. So to make it easier, God sent Jesus to be the new and much easier way to be made righteous with God…people no longer needed to obey a thousand and one OT laws to be made righteous, they could be made righteous by simply believing Jesus is the Son of God and their saviour. And to prove his point, Jesus broke those laws Himself to show that faith in Him is more important than obeying the laws.

5) Some ‘contradictions’ are due to inaccurate translations from the original text. The original scriptures were not written in English, different books were written either in Greek, Aramaic, or Hebrew. Later on these were translated into Latin, and then of course into English. Anyone who is multilingual will know that certain words or expressions used in one language are not easy to translate into another language, and it was the same problem when translating the Bible, which lead to some ‘supposed’ contradictions. However, once you understand the original meaning, then there is no contradiction. But since I don’t know crap about Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, I’ll leave it to the experts to explain it for you. The link I gave earlier with the counters to this list of contradictions explains some of these, and I also found some explanations at these links: http://www.thedevineevidence.com/bible_contradictions_translation.html and http://www.kingdavid8.com/Contradictions/Home.html. And if you are really free, here is a link to Strong’s Concordance Online: http://www.biblestudytools.com/concordances/strongsexhaustiveconcor.... You can key in a word or bible verse, and find out the full meaning of the words in their original language. And of course, any of you who know Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic and disagree with the justifications for the contradictions, by all means, go take it out with the writers.

And there are probably many more good explanations for all these ‘contradictions’, but I’m a bit lazy to think of everything for you guys. So again I challenge and even ENCOURAGE anyone, using the lines of reasoning I explained above, to really check all these ‘contradictions’ and I’m sure most if not all of them can be explained through one of my reasons above, or some other reason I haven't thought of yet, but will let you know if I do.

[CaRoL N.]

Hehe, thought I was done? No sir, there is one more very important point I absolutely must make, which is the single most important message of the Bible, and as opposed to contradictions, how consistent this message is throughout the Bible.

Whether these ‘contradictions’ are real or not really does matter in the long run because it does not really affect my life or lives of anyone else. The only message in the Bible that truly has a VERY important effect on everyone’s lives is the message that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, and there’s nothing else we need to do except believe He is our Lord and Savior in order to gain eternal life, ie. enjoy an afterlife in heaven. Those who choose not to believe will be going to the very unhappy place. Even IF the message of Jesus is not true, Christians have nothing to lose. If Jesus is not the ‘only’ way to heaven, but we get to heaven by doing good deeds as believed in most other religions, Christians are still ‘covered’ somewhat since we are taught to do good things anyway. And if all religion is really totally false, then everyone just dies and that’s it. No heaven or hell, all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, atheists, whoever… they all just cease to exist. No one loses anything. BUT if the message of Jesus IS true and He is the ONLY way to heaven, then only those who believe get to enjoy a spanking good afterlife. So the way I see it, anyone who knows the message of Jesus really needs to research and think long and hard before dismissing it as ‘bullshit’ coz’ this message can REALLY affect your life. Or rather, your afterlife.

So when it comes to this VERY important message of Jesus, there are way too many verses telling the same thing (more than listed here, I removed some to avoid making it draggy):
1. John 14:6, “Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
2. John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
3. Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
4. Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
5. Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
6. Rom. 5:9, "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
7. Rom. 10:9-10, "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."
8. Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
9. Gal. 3:14, "in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
10. Gal. 3:22, "But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
11. Eph. 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God."
12. 1 Tim. 1:16, "And yet for this reason I found mercy, in order that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience, as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

But then, those are just verses in the New Testament, after Jesus’ time. How consistent is the rest of Bible in this? Amazingly, books in the Old Testament written by prophets that lived way BEFORE Jesus was born also mentioned prophecies of a coming Messiah or Savior.

1) Prophecies from Isaiah, who lived about 680 to 700 years before Christ:
Isa:7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Jesus was born from the Virgin Mary)
Isa:9:6: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isa 53:3: “He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.” (Jesus was despised by the Pharisees and eventually by the Jews, who supported his crucification. And he was beaten around quite a bit before He was crucified – a very torturous death)
Isa:53:5: “But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.” (Jesus, during his crucification, was pierced in his side by a Roman soldier)
Isa:40:11: He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young." (Jesus commonly referred to himself as the shepherd and believers, His sheep)

2) A prophecy from Micah, who lived 687 to 742 years before Christ:
Mic:5:2: " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.” (Jesus was born in Bethlehem)

3) A prophecy from Jeremiah who lived 586 to 627 years before Christ:
Jer:23:5: "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth." (Jesus was a descendant of King David)

4) A prophecy from Zechariah who lived 480 to 520 years before Christ:
Zec 9:9: Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt)

And there are many other prophecies, though less obviously linked to Jesus as the ones above, also suggest a coming Savior. If the Bible so contradictory or inconsistent, how can it be that there are quite a number of prophecies about Jesus made by people who lived hundreds of years before Jesus?
Again, the point is, the supposed contradictions in the Bible won’t affect anyone’s life, except maybe in what they believe or how they live, but whether or not you choose to believe in Jesus as Lord and Saviour will potentially affect your (after)-life a great deal coz' an eternal life, in one place or another, is pretty long time. Very important decision, people. Hope you make a good one.

[SirReal Killer]

First of all Carol, you seem to be you really are stepping out on faith here. How do I know Jesus even existed?

There were 23 historians that were around in the days of the assumed life of Jesus.

Miraculously, not one of those 23 ever wrote about him (at all). However, there are 4 historians that the Xtians love to point to all while saying "see, I told you!".

Those 4 are as follow.

Tacitus
Suetonius
Pliny the Younger

Those 3 only mentioned very vague sentences (and only a couple at best) about some figure in history as "Christos" and other variations of the word Christ in other languages Im assuming. They never even say Jesus. That's not compelling enough.

However, the one historian that did mention Jesus specifically was:

Josephus

He's the guy Xtians really love to point to so they can do their victory dance, however, he's been proved to have been a forgery. :)

Oh and as far as prophecy goes, it's known as "self-fulfilling prophecy". It's not a tough concept for one to "wrap their brain around". ')


Say what you will about my copy and paste job, I had cross referenced quite a number of these. It's obvious to me what the author was getting at. You're the one with the Xtian agenda of "context", not me. I read these pretty unbiased. I also don't go flipping through the bible looking for hidden messages or number codes from God either. I guess the subjective nature of the matter is the reason why you all can't even agree to disagree about your own God, and you have like 20,000 denominations. Lol.

[CaRoL N.]

There were 23 historians that were around in the days of the assumed life of Jesus. Miraculously, not one of those 23 ever wrote about him (at all).

You really are such a funny guy you are. Did it ever occur to you that the reason why there are no other historical accounts of Jesus is because all the historical accounts are already in the Bible? Remember, there's not just one or two books, but 4 different accounts of Jesus life written by 4 different people. If Jesus didn't exist, why on earth would 4 different people be wasting their time telling what is a very similar story of his life and death? Harry Potter is fictitious character and I don't think you're going to get another 3 more people asides from JK Rowling writing the same Harry Potter story, with some slightly different details here and there. Not to mention 13 books in the new testament were written by the apostle Paul to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians and other churches and individuals during that time, and these 'books' were actually letters of advice teachings to these people, with numerous references to Jesus Christ. Paul was previously persecuting Christians and was then converted around 33 to 36AD. That was only 3 decades after Jesus time, and there would have been plenty of people around, including from all these churches he wrote to, who would have lived during Jesus' time as well and verified if he existed. If Jesus was a myth, how come there is no record of any of these churches writing back to Paul telling him so and asking him to check himself into a mental institution for talking about a non-existent person? And then there is also the book of Acts written by Luke, detailing what the apostles did after Jesus' death, written before 70AD, as well as the 14 other epistles written by other writers and likely were written before 90AD, which also was not that long after Jesus' time so people of that time could also have known if Jesus had existed. All these epistles also make references to Jesus Christ. Therefore in addition to the 4 gospels, you have 28 other books making numerous references to Jesus Christ (that's 5 more than your 23 historians), written close enough to Jesus time that others could easily have verified Jesus' existence, and no record of anyone of that time saying He didn't exist. So are you going to tell me that these 28 books are also mythical stories or folklore as well? Please remember that the Pauline epistles were not written in the form of stories like the gospels, they were written in the form of letters of advice or teaching, and he always started and ended his letters with a greeting in the name of Jesus Christ. You don't find Aunty Agony columnists today writing advice but first greeting their recipients in the name their good friend Superman or the Incredible Hulk, which are fictitious characters. If Jesus didn't exist, Paul would not have been writing letters like that. See, the problem with you bible whackers is that you think the Bible was written as one big book of religious nonsense when in fact it is collection of 66 books written by many different people with the intention of maintaining historical accounts of events during their time. So any historical account pertaining to God or Jesus would already be in the Bible, and that's why you don't find any other historical accounts outside of it. Get it?

Oh and as far as prophecy goes, it's known as "self-fulfilling prophecy". It's not a tough concept for one to "wrap their brain around". ')
Yes, I'm sure Jesus must put a lot of planning into making sure he was born from a virgin, and made really sure it was in the city of Bethlehem too. Plus he certainly must have nudged one of the Roman soldiers before being hung on the cross, and told the guy to poke him with a spear while He's up there, coz' he has a prophecy to fulfill. Yup, that definitely would make a lot of sense to people who already have no logic.


Say what you will about my copy and paste job, I had cross referenced quite a number of these. It's obvious to me what the author was getting at.
And did you even bother to read the explanations given at the links I gave? Probably not. And even if you did, I'm sure it would be way beyond you to accept any of it as a good explanation anyway.

I guess the subjective nature of the matter is the reason why you all can't even agree to disagree about your own God, and you have like 20,000 denominations. Lol.
Yes, the Bible has been subject of many different interpretations, no doubt due to some of these supposed contradictions. Which is why I said the rest of it really doesn't matter, only the message of salvation through Jesus. Any denomination severely defecting from this is likely to be considered a cult.

[SirReal Killer]

You're just assuming that the bible is correct. You can't prove the bible with the bible here when it comes to the historical account of Jesus. Basically, what I was implying is that the bible is fabricated on every level. I'm sure you'd also be shocked to learn a few things here. One being that the trinity concept originated from the Talisman of the sacred three

Here's a little blurb on that:


The three-sided talisman,in its many forms,is one of the most ancient symbols in the western world. Its found on the walls of the palace of Minos of Crete. It appears on ancient Irish stone carvings,as well as being etched on bones as much as 25000yrs old. It stands for the three goddess,the maiden: the goddess of youth,springtime n planting,the mother: the goddess of growth,nuturing n summer and the crone: the goddess of the harvest,wisdom n the end of things.The sacred three are also birth,life n death. Like all ancient symbols,the talisman of the sacred three is subject to ever-deeping levels of interpretation n culminates in understanding that all things are 1.

You say Jesus was born of a virgin? That's funny, so was the Egyptian God Horus who predates Jesus, he was born of the virgin Isis. Horus was said to have been born on the winter solstice, which was around dec 25th, actually the 21st. There's also no data on him between the ages of 12 and 30, he was baptized at 30, he walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind, he was transfigured on a mountain, his key address was the sermon on the mount, he was accompanied by 2 thieves, was buried in a tomb, and the list goes on. Lol

peep it: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm



All of the historical accounts are in the bible huh? You mean to tell me that a guy who walked on water, healed the sick, endured a Roman Crucifixion and then rose on the 3rd day, and was basically the most influential figure in history was limited to only the bible and not any outside sources? Get with the program Carol. I know you're smarter than that.

Why would 4 different people waste their time? Did it ever occur to you that they didn't! Do you even know how your religion was created? It all started with Gnostic practices, and then the Romans revolutionized it. The Romans also were the nay sayers in what did and didn't make it into the bible. Hence you have contradicting accounts also known as the lost gospels. When you tie them all together, none of it makes any kind of sense whatsoever, however, the fundamentals love to say that's due to them having a divine editor in chief.

As far as Paul's letters are concerned, He's about the only who ever wrote about in Jesus in detail. Lol and I highly doubt that was even Paul. But Im sure you'd argue that this is all terrorist plot cleverly put together by Satan himself.

4 others wrote about Jesus? Actually I was being generous by giving you the 3 that really didn't. It's debatable as to whether they were even referencing Jesus. And the one that did, is a forgery. So basically that leaves you with Paul alone. Hmmmm...

Has the thought ever occurred to you that the entire NT is fabricated? Im talking about cleverly fabricated (somewhat anyway) to the effect that you can go back into it, find some real places that actually existed and go ahahaha! It has to be real? Basically, yes, I'm accusing the Roman Catholics of fabricating all of the letters that are in the bible and kicking it all off to be a huge fairy tale. I know it hurts Carol, Lol, but try to to see what Im saying with an unbiased opinion. However, Im sure you wont.


I can find more in history in Aristotle, Socrates, Plato...And they were never as influential as Jesus I think we can agree. So basically you're agreeing that the only historical account of Jesus is in the bible written by a mere handful of people supposedly, and that's more than enough. Nope. It's not for someone to be so fantastical, Im sure history would have awed to say the least.

No I don't get it Carol, sorry but Im not under the same fundamental brain wash that you apparently are.

As far as Jesus being born of a virgin, Im sure you really believe that, but Ive already touched base on how that idea was constructed. Again, it's points directly to self fulfilling prophecy. Please, you couldn't even tell me Jesus' correct B day, let alone what city he was really born in, let alone him really being there. Again, self fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah, I looked at the sites you listed, they were worth a little comedy at least. Basically their arguments broke down to "metaphors" and "if you retain this certain view" crap...That speaks for itself. However, their were a couple that made some kind of logical sense. I'll give them that. But as for the majority, it was all the same crud that's been debated into the ground a million times over now.

Actually, before your so quick to scream the salvation of Jesus, go peep out Horus, he apparently saves to. ;)

[CaRoL N.]

You're just assuming that the bible is correct. You can't prove the bible with the bible here when it comes to the historical account of Jesus.
All of the historical accounts are in the bible huh? You mean to tell me that a guy who walked on water, healed the sick, endured a Roman Crucifixion and then rose on the 3rd day, and was basically the most influential figure in history was limited to only the bible and not any outside sources? Get with the program Carol. I know you're smarter than that.
And not unexpectedly, you are simply assuming the bible to be wrong. And I can very much prove bible with the bible because again the bible was not written as one big book by different people, it is a collection of 66 books written by many different people, which are all VARIOUS sources. And when writing these books, none of the writers had any inkling that later on their books would be compiled together to make the bible, the bible was only later put together by the first churches. Therefore any manuscripts that related to God or Jesus were put in this compilation, those that are not related were left out. Guess what would have happened if any of your 23 historians had written an account of Jesus Christ? It would have gone right into the Bible. And guess what? That’s exactly what happened! Luke, one of the gospel writers was not only a famous physician but also a famous Greek historian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_the_Evangelist). The wikipedia article says this:

Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay wrote that "Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians."

Whoopsie, there goes the whole ‘none-of-the-historians-of-that-time-mentioned-Jesus’ theory. Just because Luke’s account is now in the bible does not invalidate it as a trustworthy historical account. Neither are the other 3 gospels invalidated either. Even if all your 23 historians had written accounts of Jesus, these ‘outside sources’ all would have ended up in the Bible and then you naysayers would make up other funny excuses why the gospels are invalid. So YOU get with the program.

Basically, what I was implying is that the bible is fabricated on every level. I'm sure you'd also be shocked to learn a few things here. One being that the trinity concept originated from the Talisman of the sacred three

The three-sided talisman,in its many forms,is one of the most ancient symbols in the western world. Its found on the walls of the palace of Minos of Crete. It appears on ancient Irish stone carvings,as well as being etched on bones as much as 25000yrs old. It stands for the three goddess,the maiden: the goddess of youth,springtime n planting,the mother: the goddess of growth,nuturing n summer and the crone: the goddess of the harvest,wisdom n the end of things.The sacred three are also birth,life n death. Like all ancient symbols,the talisman of the sacred three is subject to ever-deeping levels of interpretation n culminates in understanding that all things are 1.
Oh wow, shock and horror. Three goddesses, who are female and represent youth, growth and harvest, compared to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, mostly male figures, and latter three having no representation whatsoever of youth, growth or harvest. I can so see the resemblance. Why don’t you try and compare the trinity to the three musketeers? Or the three blind mice? Or how about the three stooges? For crying out loud, the number 3 is commonly used in literature and symbols and the so comes as no surprise that any other religion would believe in a concept of 3 goddesses. Other from the number ‘3’ these goddesses have nothing in common with the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Oh, shock and horror again.

You say Jesus was born of a virgin? That's funny, so was the Egyptian God Horus who predates Jesus, he was born of the virgin Isis. Horus was said to have been born on the winter solstice, which was around dec 25th, actually the 21st. There's also no data on him between the ages of 12 and 30, he was baptized at 30, he walked on water, cast out demons, healed the sick, restored sight to the blind, he was transfigured on a mountain, his key address was the sermon on the mount, he was accompanied by 2 thieves, was buried in a tomb, and the list goes on. Lol
peep it: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm
And so says that ONE measly website. I checked out 5 other links related to Horus (all on the first page when I googled ‘Horus’) and here’s what I learned about the great Egyptian God:

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus): Falcon god…hmm…son of Isis and Osiris...uh huh….big battle with Set, the god of deserts, storms and chaos….Set trying to seduce Horus and have sex with him…eeww..Oohhh…SAVIOUR GOD… hmm, might have something to do with Jesus. Buuut that’s about it. Everything else, nothing to do with Jesus.

Egyptian Myths.net (http://www.egyptianmyths.net/horus.htm): Pretty much the same as Wikipedia…conceived ‘magically’ by Isis, though never mentioned she was a virgin…and oooh… one sentence about Horus personifying the rising sun and a symbol of resurrection or eternal life. Sounds kinda like Jesus too. Buuuut that’s about it.

Britannica Online Encyclopedia (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/272528/Horus#): Ooh, Britannica Encyclopedia! That might be a somewhat reliable source! But wait… there’s NOTHING in there that relates to the story of Jesus. Hmm…

Encyclopedia Mythica (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/horus.html): Again, another round of similar stories of Horus as above… but also nothing related to Jesus.

Touregypt.net (http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/horus.htm): Quite nice article divided into different sections…also mentions he was conceived magically, but nothing mentioned of a virgin birth… and once again, nothing else related to the Jesus story.

Now let’s look at the story of Horus’ supposed virgin mother, Isis at Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis). Do a quick search of the word ‘virgin’ and you will get to the section on ‘Parallels in Catholicism and Orthodoxy’. It says the images of Mother Mary used in Catholicism were deliberately taken from pagan images of Isis nursing her baby Horus. But then is also says this:

This is the result of early Christian exposure to Egyptian art. In a survey of "twenty leading Egyptologists" by Dr. W. Ward Gasque, a Christian scholar, found that all who responded recognised "that the image of the baby Horus and Isis has influenced the Christian iconography of Madonna and Child" but that there were no other similarities, eg no evidence that Horus was born of a virgin, had twelve followers, etc

So to sum up that fun endeavour into the world of Horus… FIVE different websites I visited and the only similarities to Jesus mentioned were ‘Saviour God’ and symbol of resurrection or eternal life. And the part in the wikipedia article talking about ‘Saviour God’ wasn’t even referring to Horus. It was referring to another deity named Shed who is ‘identified with Horus’. Plus, ‘saviour’ does not necessarily refer to saving from sin, which is what Jesus was. A ‘saviour’ could be saving people from anything. And the wiki article says nothing about Shed or Horus ‘saving’ people from sin. So the term ‘Saviour God’ is definitely not related to Jesus. As for the resurrection symbolism, phoenixes are also symbols of resurrection and eternal life, and I don’t hear anyone comparing Jesus to a fiery bird. So nope, not necessarily related to Jesus either. With regards to virgin birth, only two sites mentioned Horus was ‘magically conceived’, but never mentioned a virgin birth. And to top it all off, that last statement from the Wiki article on Isis. So if all these supposed similarities of Horus to Jesus are true, then why is it all the FIVE other sources I read about him mention very little of these similarities, and one even says there are no similarities other than the image of Mother Mary and Isis? Me thinks that bogus link you gave is the one that’s fabricated, not the story of Jesus. OOH, shock and horror again!

Why would 4 different people waste their time? Did it ever occur to you that they didn't! Do you even know how your religion was created? It all started with Gnostic practices, and then the Romans revolutionized it. The Romans also were the nay sayers in what did and didn't make it into the bible. Hence you have contradicting accounts also known as the lost gospels. When you tie them all together, none of it makes any kind of sense whatsoever, however, the fundamentals love to say that's due to them having a divine editor in chief.
Blablabla, show me the evidence so I can shoot it down now like I did the rest of it. Thank you.

As far as Paul's letters are concerned, He's about the only who ever wrote about in Jesus in detail. Lol and I highly doubt that was even Paul. But Im sure you'd argue that this is all terrorist plot cleverly put together by Satan himself. Has the thought ever occurred to you that the entire NT is fabricated? Im talking about cleverly fabricated (somewhat anyway) to the effect that you can go back into it, find some real places that actually existed and go ahahaha! It has to be real? Basically, yes, I'm accusing the Roman Catholics of fabricating all of the letters that are in the bible and kicking it all off to be a huge fairy tale. I know it hurts Carol, Lol, but try to to see what Im saying with an unbiased opinion. However, Im sure you wont.

LOL. Ok, now I’m the one who’s laughing like a drunken hyena! XD. So now you’re saying Paul didn’t write any of the epistles? And the Catholics made up all of it like some sort of conspiracy theory? Without ANY evidence whatsoever? Great job, Sherlock. Oh yeah, I can just picture it now… a bunch of Roman Catholic leaders huddled in a corner, discussing eagerly among themselves… “Oooh, yes! Let’s write all these inspiring letters to the different churches talking about all this good stuff like peace, love, joy, and other great teachings to make them better people… and then, and THEN , we MUST make sure all glory is attributed to this fake Jesus Christ, yeessss. For what purpose? I don’t know, but just make sure WE don’t get any glory out of this, ok? Oohh… and let’s pretend it all came from Paul! Just for the fun of it. All part of our great plan for world domination! Muahahaha!”. Oh yeah, that really hurts coz’ my side is splitting from my laughter.

Yeah, I looked at the sites you listed, they were worth a little comedy at least. Basically their arguments broke down to "metaphors" and "if you retain this certain view" crap...That speaks for itself.
So you’re arguing that every thing in the Bible has to be taken literally coz’ the metaphors argument doesn’t make sense? Another problem when you don’t read your bible. The Bible is obviously full of metaphors. Jesus referred to himself as the shepherd and believers his sheep. So by your argument, we have to take that literally, so all believers are real live sheep that go ‘baa’. I’m sure you’d find that amusing but unfortunately, we are all very real live human beings. And with regards to the biblical flood, the bible said ‘the floodgates’ of heaven opened. So again we can assume that there were giant floodgates in the sky letting out a rush of water, as opposed to rain clouds. It really doesn’t take a lot of common sense to know these are metaphors. And therefore it is perfectly valid to assume some of these ‘contradictions’ are also due to use of metaphors. But of course, that would be an unacceptable reason to anyone who’s just out to whack the Bible.

By the way, I would also like to correct my earlier reply. Paul was converted to Christianity in 33 to 36 A.D., which was 33 to 36 years after Jesus’ BIRTH, and not his death. And since Jesus lived about 30 years, it means Paul became an apostle only up to three years after Jesus’ death. Most definitely there would have been a lot of people around who could verify that Jesus existed. And yet no written descriptions of Paul being mental for continuously addressing a ‘non-existent’ Jesus. How fascinating.

[SirReal Killer]

Well Carol, Im sure it will pain you to know that I was once like you a long time ago. I also wholeheartedly believed that the bible was nothing but the divine truth, until I asked myself, is it really? Upon closer examination, after many painstaking years of research, I've concluded, that no, it isn't. So for you to assume that Im just assuming that it's wrong is wrong yet again...

When it comes to the matters of the historical account of Jesus, and using the bible, you're wrong again. It's irrelevant the total number of books that are in the bible. We should start strictly with the NT for obvious reasons. In the NT there 27 books minus the apocrypha. Im sure you might be scratching your head at the word "Apocrypha". So I'll elaborate further in this post. Since you insist on believing that I don't already know the typical theologian time line of the NT, I'll go ahead and prove to you that I already knew that plus more.

Here's the typical theologian time line view


http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/timelinent.html

What do you notice about that site? It seems to be a pro christian site to me, and I noticed that you even corrected yourself by saying 36 ad. well mine says 37 ad (That just shows more Xtian speculation), but that's not my point. In fact, from that time line, everything looks peachy keen. All of the NT books fit all of the wonderful theories, Jesus lived, hooray!

Well...

It didn't exactly happen like that.


Lets start with the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, And John.



Well Mark had to have been have been written at least 70 AD (and again Im being generous with that assumption as most would also agree that it was probably even after 70 AD) as it mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple. That is one solid reference point we can go back to for verification and the earliest point available. Now lets skip back real quick. Lets revisit that time line I provided for you.

http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/timelinent.html

In all of this speculation, you mean to tell me that the authors of the NT have a 40 year gap (give or take) between the life of Jesus and the start of the NT? OK, so what we have here, are the authors of the NT apparently not doing their job by reporting the single most miraculous story ever told, and I have 23 historians from the time of the assumed life of Jesus who did not say ONE SINGLE WORD ABOUT HIM EVER? *head scratch* a 40 year gap??? REALLY??



I already know what your thinking, "but I have Paul's letter's retard." But do you really...

In all of Paul's letters does he really seem to be aware of Jesus? Lets do a quick little scan here. Does he ever mention any of the following about Jesus?

Mary, Joseph, Bethlehem, Herrod, John the baptist, miracles, anything Jesus said, the entrance into Jerusalem, Pantius Pilot, a Jewish mob, trials...

In fact Paul doesn't seem to know anything about Jesus except for the last 3 events of Jesus's life, the cross, the resurrection, and the ascension. Lol



In Paul's almost 80,000 words on Christianity, Paul does mention Jesus roughly 230 times, however, where are the details? You have to keep in mind, that his letters were written during this 40 year gap (Supposedly), so the other 4 gospels were not there yet. So in all of those letters, he just fails to tell his own church how it all went down in detail? Well Im guessing that Jesus was just so famous that he didn't need to right? Well where the historical account? Lol. And he's the link in our 40 year gap? Lol...OK Carol, it makes perfect sense.


Well let me go ahead and paint another picture for you...

This is where the apocrypha comes into play. It is also speculated that the "Gospel of Thomas" was written at 50 AD. That is probably the single most famous of all of the lost gospels. The earliest known copy is said to be from the 2nd century, and before you're so quick to shoot that down, keep in mind, that earliest known copies of the NT are from the 3rd, 4th, and 5th centuries and not one of those are in the original authors handwriting. That's another head scratcher for you. So basically you're telling me that even with the strict historical record that the Vatican keeps, we still miraculously don't have the originals? So I guess your basically just taking the church's "word for it". Hmmmmmmmmm

OK back to the Gospel of Thomas.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

First of all, I'll state that this book was written by the Gnostics. The Gnostics were actually the first Christian church, and loved to write their stories in a fairy tale manner and create parables in the typical mythological way. Including how they portrayed Jesus. Skeptics, have tried to kick this book off to being a 2nd century forgery. You know why? Well go read it, it paints Jesus as a completely different kind of guy. Again, I've already stated how the "Jesus" character as shown in the bible was constructed. And believe it or not, but Horus isn't the only mythological God that Jesus has attributes in common with. Horus just has the most that are right on the money. Oh, and also the earliest known copy of this gospel long predates anything that was ever written by Paul by about 150 years. Well go look. I bet you can't find any original documents from "Paul's letters" that date to earlier than the 4th century, actually most sites will tell you the 5th century. However, I did have some luck on tracking down the guy who has the earliest 3rd century copies ever known of (and even those aren't in Paul's writing), but I'll get to that. That alone I find to be so odd, since Mr Saint Paul would should have a really vivid actual record from the detail oriented Vatican. They have nothing earlier? WOW.

Well now I can actually create an actual mythological Jesus, from about 50 AD - 140 AD, prove that Gnosticism started to spread to places like Rome and other parts of the Middle East around the year of 136 AD, and that gives us almost 200 years before the RCC was actually created and everything was put into place.

Well when did the RCC come about? The year would be 313 AD by the Roman Emperor Constantine. That's kind of odd considering that:

The conventional claim is that the earliest Christian writings are the letters of St Paul, and these are said to date from between 48 and 60 AD. But NO original documents exist and the authenticity of Paul's epistles has been doubted since the 18th century. The earliest copies extant are from the 3rd century, the trophies of a 1930s American copper millionaire, Chester Beatty. Beatty bought parts of eleven biblical codices from dealers in Cairo. One codex contains the four gospels and Acts, another the letters of Paul, and a third a late 3rd century copy of Revelation. Significantly, the Pauline letters in the "P46" papyri are arranged in an unusual order and exclude the pastorals. Was the Pauline corpus still a work-in-progress in the 3rd century?


HMMMMMMM??????


About Luke, Thanks for pointing out the fact that he was a "famous Greek historian". That just leads us to more questions as to why no other famous Greek historians wrote about Jesus ever. Surely we can agree, that if one of them was making these fantastical claims, surely the others interest would have sparked. That is, if we just go ahead and except the fact that Luke was the author of anything in the NT. Lol, at you're "wiki" solid evidence. About the Sir William Ramsey quote, Yes I saw that, and like I've stated before, just because there are real places in the bible does not mean anything, especially considering the rest of the evidence. It all points to being falsified.

About the Trinity blurb, say what you will in mocking how your God got all of his attributes from other Pagan rituals and religions, but you're not realizing the facts of the matter here. The fact of the matter is that The talisman of the Sacred three long predates Christianity, and also, take a good look at that symbol. Look familiar? Or do you even know what your own trinity symbol looks like.

On the subject of using the Bible to prove the existence of Jesus, actually no you can't prove the bible with the bible when it comes TO THE HISTORICAL ACCOUNT OF JESUS CHRIST, I've already painted a more than solid case against why you can't. I'm assuming that you think I brought a knife to a gun fight. Take a closer examination to the link I gave you. It clearly gives you the references of the information. I'll just go ahead and list those here.

This is where you will find the information on Horus from the link that I provided.

References used:

The following information sources were used to prepare and update the above essay. The hyperlinks are not necessarily still active today.

1. Tom Harpur, "The Pagan Christ; Recovering the Lost Light," Thomas Allen, (2004), Page 5. Read reviews or order this book. A Canadian Broadcasting Corp. documentary based on this book won the Platinium Award at the WorldFest Remi Awards in 2008.
2. Ibid, Page 85.
3. Ibid, Page 80. Items as seen in the Temple of Luxor, built by Amenhotep III, a pharaoh of the eighteenth dynasty, before 1700 BCE.
4. Ibid, Page 89.
5. Ibid, Pages 128 to 136.
6. Google horus crucified to see conflicting accounts on the way in which Horus died.
7. Ibid, Page 74. From the confession that humans made in the presence of Horus at the Hall of Maat -- the place of judgment for all.
8. "The Ritual: The Egyptian Book of the Dead."


About the rest of your post, it's really irrelevant, considering....

[CaRoL N.]

You know, after all this debating, I’m seeing a trend of you and other non-believers jumping to flawed conclusions that the Bible is false based on insufficient evidence. Allow me to demonstrate to you exactly how fallacious such conclusions are by first seeing how well one of these would stand up in the court of law.

Your first conclusion is that apart from the 4 gospels in the Bible, there are no other reliable accounts of Jesus by other historians of that time, therefore the stories of the gospels are unreliable and not true. Such an argument would most certainly fail to stand up in the court of law...unless perhaps you are in a court bound by the fundamentalist Muslim Syariah law. Let’s take for example, a case of a serious crime such as a murder or a rape. If there are four witnesses to that crime, each recounting more or less a same version of the story, no matter what level of society these witnesses are at (a lowly maid, a car driver, or even a child), if there are no other conflicting accounts of the event, these 4 witness testimonies have to be taken as valid testimonies and can be used to convict the perpetrator of the crime. No court of law is going to throw out 4 witness accounts as invalid simply because there are no witness accounts from other more ‘important people’ like politicians or company CEO’s, or in the Bible’s case, HISTORIANS. And in the case of the 4 gospels, I’ve already shown that one of the writers, Luke, is a famous greek historian, and all 4 gospels give very detailed accounts of Jesus’ life that corroborate very well with each other. Even if the four gospels were not written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but written by unknown writers, you still have 4 separate accounts of Jesus Christ. If you want believe that the early churches falsified these 4 accounts for some reason or another, as already pointed out in that lovely long list of Bible Contradictions, there are slightly contradicting accounts of the same stories in each Gospel. If the early churches had falsified these accounts to create a false religion, they could have done a better job by making sure ALL the details in the gospels corresponded with other perfectly. But they didn’t, which makes it clear that they were not copied from each other, and more likely were 4 accounts written by four separate people based on their own experiences of an existing Jesus Christ.

HOWEVER, the fundamentalist Muslims do not follow the conduct of the ‘normal court of law’ but abide instead by their Syariah Law. Under this law, in the event of a female being raped, the victim must be able to produce 4 male witnesses to testify that the rape occurred or else the perpetrator of the crime will not be convicted. If the victim can produce 3 male witnesses to testify, this is not enough. The perpetrator goes scott free. If the victim can produce 3 male witnesses and several female witnesses, this is still not enough. The perpetrator still goes scott free. It must be at least FOUR MALE witnesses. If the victim cannot produce these 4 male witnesses but claims to be raped, under Syariah Law, the victim herself can be convicted for making a false accusation against the perpetrator.

Now any of us here would know that this is probably one of the most bullshit and unjust laws on the planet. If even ONE witness to the crime can be produced, this must still be considered legitimate evidence to convict a criminal. And yet, when it comes to the Bible, even FOUR different accounts are not enough evidence for you that the events of the Bible are real. Your logic is every bit as ridiculously flawed as that of our fundamentalist Muslim friends. And your reason for why the 4 gospels are invalid accounts? Because they are in the Bible. My friend, even if the early churches had not put together the 66 books to form one big book called THE BIBLE, you still would have 4 gospels as well 62 of the other books lying around. Is that really so difficult to comprehend or do you enjoy being willfully ignorant of how the Bible came to be?

But now you argue, a rape is done in private whereas Jesus’s ministry was very public and there would have been many witnesses and therefore should be more written accounts of his life. Fair enough. Since you are such an expert on the Bible, do you remember how many people in the gospel wholeheartedly accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of God when he was alive? Apart from the apostles and a few others, not many. The Pharisees certainly didn’t believe it since they were out to kill him. And even though Jesus had done many miracles and healed people along the way, in the end, these same people still made Pontius Pilate crucify Jesus. Read that up in Matthew 27:15-26, Mark 15:6-15; Luke 23:1-25, and John 19:1-16. The Jews also did not believe Jesus was the Messiah. So when the story of Jesus spread to the 23 other historians, do you think that all of them would have believed that Jesus was the Son of God or performed all the miracles they heard about? Either they would not have believed it, or they hated Jesus as much as the Pharisees. And if so, they certainly would not have wasted their time writing a historical record of a person they didn’t believe or like. Especially so if they were Greek historians. As we all know, the Greeks are famous for their mythology and believed in a heckuva lot of gods and deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_gods). And they were believing in these gods up to 900 years before Jesus was born. Then along comes a certain Jesus Christ talking about being the Son of God, the ONE TRUE God. By accepting his teachings and writing about Him, those Greek historians would have essentially been rejecting their 900 years of Greek mythology. They would have been ridiculed and persecuted by other Greeks! Why on earth would they want to risk their stature and reputation in exchange for ridicule to write about Jesus Christ? So of course they didn’t, unless they really believed Jesus was the true messiah, like Luke did.

Your second conclusion is that certain elements of Christianity mimic those of pagan religions, therefore the story of Jesus isn’t true. Yet another flawed conclusion. Assuming you are correct and certain elements were copied, it does not necessarily prove that all the gospels were copied as well. You mentioned college football, so I assume you are a college kid and familiar with exams, no? Say it’s exam week, and it’s the final paper of the week. Your classmate John has completed all the previous papers by himself thus far, but gets lazy and decides to copy some answers from the student next to him. But he gets caught by the teacher, assumes that he was copying on all his other papers as well and therefore fails him for all his papers. Fair conclusion? Of course not. Copying on one paper did not mean he copied on all of them. Just like the early churches copying elements of pagan religions does not show all the gospels were copied as well. I agree that cute little trinity symbol and the birthday of Jesus was most likely copied from pagan religions, but the gospels itself certainly not copied from the story of Horus, and I’ll pick that apart more in a bit. First to the trinity symbol.

Just so you know, the reason why I did not pick up on this the first time round is because I’m from a Baptist church and we do not believe in the use of symbolism or imagery, unlike our Catholic friends, and we’re not big on the trinity concept either. So to me, this symbol means absolutely nothing. However, I did grow up in a Catholic church, so I am familiar with the trinity concept. However, did you know that the Bible itself never explicitly teaches the concept of the trinity? At most it make references to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and Jesus also said that He and His Father are one, but nothing in reference to all three being one and no mention of the word ‘trinity’. So if the writers of NT had stolen this idea from pagans, they certainly did a pretty bad job of expounding on it. The trinity doctrine was only introduced in the early third century, and many still dispute the truth of this doctrine. So at best, you can only accuse the early orthodox church, but not the NT writers, of copying from a pagan religion. So it goes to show that NT writers did not copy this idea from pagans. And of course, copying a symbol does not necessarily mean the story of Jesus isn’t real, it was just a convenient thing for the orthodox church to do since it was already there and it fit with the Trinity concept. To make my point even clearer, here’s another pretty picture.

Recognize our little pagan symbol somewhere in there? The same symbol is also being used on the album covers of a famous Christian rock band called P.O.D. So 2000 years from now, someone with the same flawed logic as you may come along, find their album covers and conclude from the symbol that this is a pagan band... or the band didn’t even exist. But I listen to them quite a bit. They are very real, very Christian and they really rock. Just like Jesus.

Same logic applies to Jesus’ birthday of course. I wasn’t born yesterday, Ialready knew long ago December 25 is not Jesus’ actual birthday and that Christmas was instituted by Constantine. Of course Constantine did not know the actual birthday of Jesus, and since he no longer believed in the pagan sun god, it would have been pretty tedious to scrap that god’s birthday of December 25 as a celebration and declare another day to celebrate Jesus’ birthday. So He did the most convenient thing and declared December 25 as Jesus’ birthday, at the same time making a point for people to stop worshipping a fake pagan god. Besides, Constantine lived 300 years after Jesus time, whatever he did wouldn’t have proved or disproved the truth of the gospels anyway.

Now let’s go back to Horus. Did you notice that on the very same website you gave me there was a page debating the copycat theory? It’s right here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5c.htm. It discusses 3 supposedly similar elements between Jesus and Horus, the virgin birth, the 12 disciples and the crucification. According to this, Horus has either four disciples or 16 human followers, but not 12, and the death by crucification did no exist in Egypt, so this is untrue as well. The only possible ‘true’ similarity is the virgin birth, even then, it seems ten Egyptologists unanimously agreed that Horus was not born of a virgin. I’ve already shown. I also found another link with a VERY long description of Horus: http://www.crystalinks.com/horus.html. And I wasted about 10 minutes searching for terms related to the alleged similarities between Jesus and Horus according to that list: Meri, Seb, cave, Sirius, solar deities, shepherds, Herut (Herod), baptism or baptize, Anup, disciples, sermon, crucified or crucification, Hell… all came up with NOTHING, just like the 5 other links I showed before. The only similarities were the virgin birth (which 10 Egyptologists said in not true), Savior (nothing related to salvation from sin) and resurrection. Do you not find it strange that I am consistently finding other resources with such a wealth of information on Herod, all sorely lacking descriptions of the many alleged similarities listed on that site? I would REALLY appreciate it if you could explain why this is so to me. If you can so easily believe that the New Testament was falsified with no good reason for WHY it would be, I can even more easily believe the alleged similarities between Jesus and Herod were falsified, because of people like you who simply do not wish to accept the truth of the gospels. Problem for you is that there are already so many accounts of Horus that describe very little of these alleged similarities. But for the gospels, there are no other starkly different accounts of Jesus life or people in his life. Even the stories in the Lost Gospels, which you claim make no sense whatsoever in light of biblical gospels, tell stories that are quite in line with the biblical gospels. The Gospel of Judas, for example, tells that Jesus was handed over to the Romans by Judas, which was described in the 4 gospels. And the Gospel of Mary refers to Jesus as Saviour, and describes conversations between Mary and Peter, Andrew and Levi, which were Jesus’ disciples. These are all in line with the biblical gospels, unlike the descriptions of Horus which are completely different from the list of alleged similarities.

Since we’re on the topic of the Lost Gospels, you also mentioned they were written by Gnostics, which are famous for writing fairy tales. Most of these were written after 200AD, so I don’t think they would be accurate accounts of Jesus’ life. However, even if the Lost Gospels were not true accounts, it doesn’t necessarily mean Jesus was a myth either. I’d like to show you a little link to prove my point again: http://neverlandnights.5u.com/links.html.

Nothing to do with Jesus, as you can see. It is a link to Neverland Nights, the #1 Michael Jackson fanfiction site. A whole collection of FICTITIOUS stories, but written about a REAL person, the great but late Michael Jackson (God bless him!). And there are plenty more MJ fanfic sites out there too. So if people can write fictitious stories about the REAL King of Pop, then I can also believe that the Gnostics wrote fictitious stories about a very REAL King of the Jews.

Now let me pick on the timeline difference between Paul’s epistles and the 4 gospels. As mentioned, Paul wrote his letters between 48 to 60 AD, and the gospels possibly came after 70AD. You asked me why the gospel writers didn’t do their job and write it earlier, or why Paul didn’t write any historical accounts of Jesus in his letters. Well, you already said it. Jesus was already famous at that point, and you have to remember this was a time of no internet, radio, tv, newspapers, etc… all news of Jesus was spread by word of mouth. Since everyone already knew about him, there was no urgency to keep a historical record of him, but there was an urgency to spread Jesus’ teachings and disciple the people. Remember, Jesus’ Great Commandment was “Go and make disciples of all nations...” (Matthew 28:19). It wasn’t “Go and make accurate historical records of me”. So Paul’s main agenda was to carry out the Great Commandment, and it was only later on when the gospel writers needed to preserve the accounts of Jesus by writing the 4 gospels. But of course, this explanation isn’t good enough for you, is it? So let’s look at it another way.

Assuming you are right and Jesus never existed and the Pauline epistles and the 4 gospels were all fabricated to start a false religion. Why would the Pauline epistles have been written BEFORE the gospels? If Jesus didn’t exist, no one would have known he was real, it would not have made sense for whoever wrote the epistles to constantly give glory to a mythical person who nobody knew anything about, right? Wouldn’t it have made more sense if the gospels were written BEFORE the epistles? Then everyone would at least know the story and the epistles would make more sense. But of course, you’ll say, the epistles were never sent out to anyone, they were just written and kept for later, maybe? If that were so, that means STILL no one would have known about this mythical Jesus until after 70 AD when the 4 gospels were written for some strange agenda of the first church. Now before I go into my next point, I’d like to point out again that you’ve only said that you believe the gospels were fabricated. But you never told me WHY they would do so to start a false religion. To gain power? Or money? Or glory? Well, if that was their purpose, they really failed miserably because the early Christians got none of that. Instead they were being persecuted and killed by the Romans since. The first documented case of Christian persecution by the Roman empire was in 64-68AD, under the Roman Emperor Nero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians). In his Annals, Tacticus (a Roman Historian), stated that "to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians [or Chrestians].

Waitaminute. The persecution started BEFORE 70 AD, but the gospels were written AFTER 70AD? If the gospels weren’t written yet and so the story of Jesus not yet fabricated, then how come Christians already existed and were being persecuted? And why would they have allowed themselves to be persecuted and killed for a non-existent Jesus? And this persecution continued well into the third century, until Constantine came around and declared Christianity legal. It makes no sense whatsoever if the story of Jesus was fabricated. It only makes sense if Jesus was real, and the believers knew he was real and were willing to die for their faith.

And also, even if all that never happened and say, the bible and its fake stories was put together by the early orthodox or catholic church for the agenda of power, money, glory, or whatever. They would have had a much easier time attaining all this WITHOUT including the NT gospels. The early Catholic Church had developed a system of granting indulgences, which according to them, is the full or partial of temporal punishment due for sins which have already been forgiven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence). After a while, they started making MONEY out of selling indulgences to poor believers trying to make up for their sins. However, the gospels and epistles repeatedly taught that the only salvation from sin was through faith in Jesus Christ… therefore, there was no NEED to pay for indulgences. And this was what lead to the Protestant reformation headed by Martin Luther, who believed the church was becoming corrupt and their practices of selling indulgences was far from biblical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_reformation). IF the NT gospels had never been written, the Catholic church would only have had to refer to the Old Testament manuscripts, which were full of the gazillion and one laws set by God for righteous living. No message of free salvation from sin through Jesus. They would have had a much easier time convincing people that they needed to ‘pay’ to atone for their sins, and the protestant reformation, which led to a loss in power of the Catholic Church, would not have happened. In short, you’re willing to believe that the early church went through ALL this trouble to fabricate 4 fake gospels and 28 fake epistles, which eventually screwed them over.

So after all that, please I ask you, tell me why on EARTH do you think the purpose of the early Christians for fabricating the gospels? Either they would have been killed for it, or they lost power because of it. I’d REALLY love to hear your theory, so make it a good one. I need another good laugh. And while you’re scratching YOUR head coming up with some incredulous theory, I will continue to happily worship and trust in my very REAL Saviour and Lord, Jesus Christ.

[CaRoL N.]

Oh yeah, I forgot to add one more thing. About the missing original manuscripts of the gospels and the epistles AND the lack of archaelogical evidence for Jesus before Constantines' time? Again, the Christians were undergoing a major persecution by the Romans for almost 300 years, so it wouldn't be a big surprise to me that the original manuscripts are missing and artifacts are lacking because the Romans would certainly would have destroyed anything they could find related to Christianity. So after Constantine became a Christian and made Christianity legal, there was no more destruction of Christian artifacts, hence that's why all these Christian artifacts started popping up after that. No big surprise.

[SirReal Killer]

My post is super long so im putting this one at the very end.